Pokemon as D&D monsters

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:48 am

Jilocasin wrote:Hey I'm typing up the Flying list right now and I just noticed that neither Bird, Air Ace, or Aerialist have Roost in them. Seems a bit odd to me, and I think it should be included in at least one of those. Preferably Bird.

Boy, is my face red...

Going to fix that now...

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:11 am

Koumei wrote:Coatl is probably Flying/Dragon

It's either Psychic/Flying or Psychic/Dragon, what with it explicitly having psychic powers (i.e. Psionics (Sp)), and I'm inclined to say it's Psychic/Flying with some vaguely dragonlike traits (like Charizard and Gyarados are X/Flying but can get Dragon-type moves).

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:13 am

A note on costs: my first random toss out was to make pokemon's cost be based on the level they transform at. But the fact is that weaker pokemon transform at much"higher level" than stronger pokemon do. So the foundational assumption on costs has itself evolved such that now a pokemon's cost is based on how touch it is relative to other pokemon - and only the weakest pokemon (Wurmple and such) actually have their cost set by their levels. A Bulbasaur becomes an Ivysaur at level 14, but even an unevolved bulbasaur is more than a match for a Metapod.

Koumei wrote:But while I have the microphone, so to speak, let's look over some things:

1. Stats still start at that 0-4 spread
2. They go up by +3 across the board every level
3. Presumably, a higher valued Pokemon also gets bigger stats
4. Every level you gain (Bigness) HP
5. Initiative is based on Quickness or whatever
6. Presumably the other stats do not affect some other "Not ATT or DEF" thing, but we don't care, because it's not that big a deal and, for any given points value, the numbers will be more or less the same anyway

People were arguing for more smaller levels rather than less bigger levels. +1/level is probably what we're going for. As such, Pokemon are probably going to have base stat arrays that diverge substantially from the 0-4 range. For reference:

Stat Assignment Lookup Charts


Level of Blood Hawk	Cost	That's a 1st level	Average Level:
1	11	Swinub	Budew
2	14	Charmander	Bulbasaur
3	19	Aureptile	Dryad
4	26	Electabuzz	Diretoad
5	35	Cacturne	~Obseon
6	46	Heracross	~Luxio
7	59	~Bellossum	~Octillery
8	74	~Ragewind	~Seadra
9	91	Raikou	~Hitmonchan
10	110	Darkrai	Wailord
11	131	-	~Inferno Spider
12	154	-	~Charizard
13	179	-	~Electrode
14	206	-	Sundoo
15	235	-	Orcwort
16	266	-	Topior
17	299	-	Ragewind
18	334	-	~Kabutops
19	371	-	~Megapede
20	410	-	Raikou

What does that mean? It means that for the cost of a 14th level Bloodhawk is exactly the same as a 12th level Sundoo. And that means that a Sundoo has better stats at 12th level than a Bloodhawk has at 14th. Sure, it's an eyeless mound of vegetable matter that rolls around flinging sticky tentacles at things, so I imagine that it may have some weaknesses in its stat array, but on the whole it presumably has better stats than a Bloodhawk who gets +2 to every stat across the board. Not "the same" but in fact actually better, because a Blood Hawk's non-stat based powers like Curse, Double Team, and Roost function at 14th level instead of 12th. So to make up for that, the Sundoo's stat-based powers or defense (or both) have to be performing better. Probably substantially better, because we kind of want people to at least mostly upgrade to Sundoos and Raikous vs. just fielding a squad of Venonats all the way through.

And yes, this means that low cost Pokemon like Dryad and Buneary who have lots of booster moves and can ignore their stat arrays for a lot of actions will feature more prominently in high level teams than low cost pure brawlers like Warmling or Horsea. I find that to be an acceptable piece of system mastery. Line fitting it will take some jiggering, but it seems entirely doable. We can also move desirability around a bit by giving out really out-there special abilities to the higher powered pokemon. Tyranitar may be a disappointing 2 meters tall, but he apparently comes with a sand storm that covers the entire battlefield and doesn't affect him anytime he gets upset. So um... yeah. With a power like that, his stat line wouldn't have to be especially good to justify a substantial point cost.

As for the dragons, I think that the Gold Dragon should be Water Type and the Black Dragon should be Poison Type.

-Username17

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:53 pm

I decided that Rapidash could seriously just be a Rhino. Face horn users unite. Anyway, yeah, a lot of things that are totally sweet in head to head battles are going to be rather meaningless. No one is going to say "Oh Noes! Wobbuffet!" or anything. It's just a wobbly blue... thing... that looks disturbingly like a cock and balls. The fact that it's totally fucking unfair in head-to-head isn't going to mean a whole lot. People don't even switch out, so the magic power to keep people from switching out isn't the be-all-and-end-all of everything. It's just a thing.

Dark Type Pokemon


Name	Cost	Movelist 1	Movelist 2	Movelist 3
Poochyena	10	Bully	Big Dog
Shadasp	10	Serpent	Poisoner	Moonlight
Moon Rat	10	Mouse	Moonlight	Power of Cute
Quasit	12	Poisoner	Disaster	Shapeshifter
Imp	12	Poisoner	Disaster	Evil Bastard
Dretch	13	Gasser	Bully
Deathdog	14	Big Dog	Bite Club	Multiminded
Nuzleaf	14	Leafstress	Gloom and Doom	Tricky
Carvahna	14	Fishy	Evil Bastard
Houndour	17	Big Dog	Fire Starter	Evil Bastard
Skeroloth	18	Beetle	Evil Bastard	Power of Cute
Murkrow	20	Bird	Evil Bastard
Tioman	20	Mouse	Moonlight	Evil Bastard
Marrash	20	Assassin	Air Ace	Poisoner
Sableye	24	Brain Fu	Bully	Spooky
Nightmare	25	Body Inferno	Dimension Rift	Mounted Combat
Stunky	26	Cat	Gasser
Crawdaunt	27	Lobster	Deep Sea Creature	Evil Bastard
Mightyena	28	Bully	Big Dog	Angry Monster
Ahuizotl	28	Tricky	Vedic	Wading Pool
Slasrath	30	Serpent	Air Ace	Slasher
Bezikira	32	Cat	Predator	Bully
Mezzoloth	32	Vedic	Moonlight	Evil Bastard
Succubus	32	Humanoid	Charm	Vampire
Cacturne	34	Bully	Thorns	Desert Storm
Sneasel	35	Bully	Frosty
Sharpedo	37	Deep Sea Creature	Evil Bastard	Bite Club
Erinyes	37	Charm	Swordsman	Assassin
Absol	38	Humanoid	Disaster
Vrock	40	Bird	Gasser	Disaster
Ecalypse	42	Moonlight	Dimenson Rift	Mounted Combat
Skuntank	45	Gasser	Cat	Blaster
Umbreon	45	Tricky	Moonlight	Power of Cute
Umbranyan	46	Tentacular	Dimension Rift	Gloom and Doom
Drapion	47	Lobster	Poisoner	Angry Monster
Houndoom	47	Fire Master	Big Dog	Evil Bastard
Slaay	47	Battletoad	Capoeira	Assassin
Maelephant	49	Evil Bastard	Powerhouse	Rhino
Honchkrow	50	Bird	Evil Bastard	Air Ace
Cauchemar	53	Body Inferno	Dimension Rift	Mounted Combat
Shiftry	59	Leafstress	Gloom and Doom	Evil Bastard
Spiritomb	63	Empath	Evil Bastard	Gloom and Doom
Weavile	65	Bully	Frosty	Esoteric Martial Arts
Alklith	71	Moonlight	Toxic Touch	Amorphous Body
Gelugon	72	Frosty	Slasher	Evil Bastard
Nightmare Beast	77	Nightmare	Predator	Angry Monster
Marilith	85	Swordsman	Vedic	Serpent
Tyranitar	89	Dragon	Desert Storm	Disaster
Pit Fiend	93	Fire Master	Dominator	Words of Doom
Balor	93	Body Inferno	Swordsman	Evil Bastard
Shape of Fire	99	Body Inferno	Wraith	Spooky
Voidshadow	101	Frosty	Wraith	Gloom and Doom
Darkrai	109	Disaster	Nightmare	Gloom and Doom

I don't see any MM4 monsters in there, because the MM4 blows.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:43 pm

Fair enough. So this means, if we say Bigness starts at 2 for a weak 10-point Pokemon, and say 8 for a 26-point Pokemon, at +1/level, we're looking at:


Level	10-point HP	26-point HP
1	2	8
2	5	17
3	9	27
4	14	38
5	20	50
6	27	63
7	35	77
8	44	91
9	54	108
10	65	125
11	77	143
12	90	162
13	104	182
14	119	203
15	135	225
16	152	248
17	170	272
18	189	297
19	209	323
20	230	350

And that doesn't look like a problem to me: a level 4 Blood Hawk is better (HP-wise) than a level 1 Electabuzz, same for level 5/2 (except BH is still level 4 at te points value of a level 2 Electabuzz), and they break even at level 6/3 (except the points values suggest it should be 5/3 that is equal, so EB is already ahead). After that, Electabuzz pulls ahead, but also has better basic numbers right from the word go. In return, say your basic damage is d6/level, we're looking at (at this 5/3 comparison) 5d6 (17.5) to 3d6 (10.5). Now add the attack stat in and it's 5d6+~6 (23.5) to 3d6+~10 (20.5), the gap closing. But! BH does have a clear advantage here: it gets actual new, better moves earlier.

That could be a perfectly reasonable pay-off.

---

Thought: Multimind, Dugtrio/Magneton/Eggsecute, aye/nay?

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 5:49 pm

I'm a bit lost here... how is combat supposed to work again? Are you guys still working on the "Place a card face down on the table" idea? Are you going to have multiple pokemon out at once (which it seems like), or only one? If multiple, are you supposed to have one card for each pokemon? If it's one pokemon at once, what's to keep someone from just going for a small amount of really strong pokemon? How many battles will there be a day, and how long is each combat supposed to last?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:42 pm

DragonChild wrote:I'm a bit lost here... how is combat supposed to work again? Are you guys still working on the "Place a card face down on the table" idea? Are you going to have multiple pokemon out at once (which it seems like), or only one? If multiple, are you supposed to have one card for each pokemon? If it's one pokemon at once, what's to keep someone from just going for a small amount of really strong pokemon? How many battles will there be a day, and how long is each combat supposed to last?

Those are all good questions. Right now it's looking like the answer is that we're going for a Warmachine-like setup where your squad is on the board and the "goal" is taking out the other team's Pokemaster rather than hunting down their last abra. This core conceit allows highly maneuverable or defensive pokemon without necessarily making the game grind to a halt or cause it to devolve into "mopupitis". But yeah, your whole squad is on the board and you're generally expected to invest in a few powerful pokemon.

As for the the turn, we're still looking at selecting potential maneuvers, then having all the pieces move, then revealing all the chosen maneuvers and having them go off. Each maneuver will have a potential striking section like unto Shogi pieces of Disgaea special attacks, and I'm not actually sure that we need to-hit rolls on top of that.

As for how many battles in a day or whatever, I don't think that really matters, since I don't think we're currently planning on tracking PP.

-Username17

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:55 pm

If not per day, then what about per session?. As it is, the encounter where you go into the forest, catch some bug pokemon, battle your rival, get interrupted by a swarm of beedrills that you have to fight, and then thwart team rocket seems like it would be 2-3 sessions, if not more. It just seems like the potential moves on a grid like that in addition to multiple pokemon (imagine 5 players, each of with having 4 pokemon, AND enough pokemon to be a challenge for them) would make the encounters take a long amount of real-time.

Also, if this is grid based, what about the sizes of pokemon? Do a caterpie and a venusaur both take up one square?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:02 am

I MOVE AND SHOOT!

Seriously, we've sort of ventured into the realm of tabletop miniatures games, so a battle should be substantially less time intensive than a W40k game, but only because there are four players controlling a maximum of 28 models.

As for session length, that'll vary. But since you don't have adversarial terrain placement, LOS, or measurement for 50+ models, I think you could plausibly fit 2-3 battles into a session if you wanted to. However, I imagine that most players would come into the game looking for a session kind of like this:

Having lost their way again, Max looks at his PokéNav for the nearest Pokémon Center. Pikachu seems to notice something in the distance and dashes off while Ash tells Pikachu to wait up.

Pikachu has found an abandoned city while May is already frightened by the looks of the surroundings. Walking through the city, they arrive at a mine shaft inside of the city. A Haunter appears from within the cave as everyone runs away in fright. Nearby, Team Rocket is sitting atop a platform as Meowth notices everyone running away from the mine shaft. Meowth suggests that they should go inside of the mine shaft themselves. Reaching the bottom of the ground, Team Rocket venture into the same mine shaft. The same Haunter appears again as it seems to have no effect on them. When Haunter sticks its tongue out then Team Rocket runs off in fright. Ash and his friends take cover in a nearby building. Everyone is still on edge from the sighting as Ash stands up slowly to look out of a nearby window. Everything seems to be desolate as it begins to rain.

Meanwhile, Team Rocket never escaped the mine shaft and just fell to the ground unconscious. Jessie wakes noticing that they are still inside of the shaft and starts to wake up James. They begin to exit the mine but notice the rain outside and decide to adventure further within the mine. With Jessie in such a frightened state, Wobbuffet easily frightens her with his usual "greeting". Another strange sound emits from the shaft as the Haunter appears again. Frightening everyone, Wobbuffet scorches out of the shaft leaving everyone else behind. Still in a frightened state, Jessie and James still manage to release their Pokémon in an effort to combat Haunter. Both Seviper and Cacnea are frightened by the Haunter and dash back to their masters.

Cacnea then launches a Pin Missile attack at Haunter but the attack is ineffective. Seviper launches a Poison Tail attack, but it easily goes through Haunter and makes contact with the shaft ceiling. Jessie then throws Meowth in one last effort and manages to hit the electrical box above which lights up the shaft and sends Haunter away. Jessie seems to be surprised that the light drove Haunter away. Further ahead in the shaft, a few Ghost Pokémon are hiding behind a barrel. Meowth releases his claws in effort to attack as the little Ghost Pokémon tries to reason with him.

Ash and his friends are still inside of the building now sleeping as May is still frightened from the Haunter event. A mysterious sound starts to come from the nearby room which sends May into a further state of fright. May then goes to wake Ash, but he is fast asleep, so she screams to wake everyone up. It works and everyone gets up to explore the hallway, finding the source behind a door. Ash opens the door and discovers many Psychic Pokémon including Abra, Kirlia, Kadabra, and Hypno dancing to music.

May then presses her hands on top of Max and Ash sending them falling into the room and alerting the nearby Pokémon. The Abra hasn't escaped and is in a state of hypnosis with a powerful psychic field around its body. As Ash starts to touch the Abra, his hand is forced back by the field. Max notices a picture underneath a couch the Abra is sitting on, which is a picture of the Psychic Pokémon and the miners of the now abandoned town. Abra then depicts a scene from the past from when the town was flourishing which the miners abandoning the Pokémon. Ash suggests that they should give the Psychic Pokémon their own little party for them. Abra then opens the door and after a few seconds the Pokémon rushes in.

Meanwhile the Ghost Pokémon depict a story to Meowth recounting an everlasting battle between the Ghost Pokémon and the Psychic Pokémon. When the Psychic Pokémon tried to enter the mine, the Ghost Pokémon form a figure of a gigantic Haunter to scare them away.

Meanwhile, as Wobbuffet was running away from the "Haunter", Wobbuffet hears the music from the Psychic Pokémon and notices the Kirlia dancing on the table. Wobbuffet develops a crush as he notices Kirlia's majestic movements, and rushes into the building. Wobbuffet then reveals a flower to Kirlia as which she then accepts sending Wobbuffet into a state of love.

A nearby explosion rocks the building, as the gigantic Haunter appears again. Gigantic arms eject from Haunter's body, snatching every psychic Pokémon. After snatching Kirlia, Wobbuffet dashes after Kirlia and into the gigantic mecha. The Ghost Pokémon then reveal Team Rocket's new mecha with the scene being set with their motto. Wobbuffet rushes down to the cage in the mecha, where the Psychic Pokémon are held captive, and tries to release them by hitting the cage but it proves to be futile. Wobbuffet then walks back a few feet for momentum, and then rushes into the cage, smashing it and releasing all of the Psychic Pokémon. Team Rocket is shocked that Jessie's own Wobbuffet released the Pokémon from their prison.

Meowth then directs the Ghost Pokémon to attack, and they execute Shadow Ball, directing it at the fleeing Psychic-types. Kirlia springs into the air and blocks the Shadow Ball using Reflect, sending it rushing back towards Team Rocket's mecha and sending them blasting off into the sky again. Kirlia then notices the wilted flower that Wobbuffet handed her as the Ghost Pokémon are still ready to fight. Pikachu then launches a Thunderbolt between the two feuding groups and Ash tries to explain that they don't have to battle. Ash's speech proves to be ineffective as both sides are still ready to battle more than ever. Brock notices Abra sleeping nearby and formulates a plan.

Abra is now outside with the rest of the Psychic Pokémon but now is emitting its shield around all of the Psychic Pokémon while they dance, preventing the Ghost-types from hearing their music. With both groups satisfied, the travelers leave the town, ready to take on the Battle Frontier.

So a bunch of RP and maybe two fights.

-Username17

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:21 pm

Rock Type


Name	Cost	Movelist 1	Movelist 2	Movelist 3
Geodude	10	Sphere	Hard Rock
Bonsly	10	Hard Rock	Tricky	Power of Cute
Rust Monster	12	Geomancy	Hardbody
Nosepass	13	Electromagnet	Geomancy	Hard Rock
Corsola	13	Hard Rock	Wading Pool	Thorns
Larvitar	14	Hard Rock	Little Dragon
Cranidos	16	Fossil	Bonehead
Aron	17	Digger	Light Metal	-
Onix	17	Serpent	Hard Rock	Burrower
Lileep	17	Fossil	Bite Club
Anorith	17	Fossil	Lobster
Shieldon	17	Hard Rock	Heavy Metal	-
Cockatrice	18	Bird	You Rock
Lairon	20	Digger	Heavy Metal	Rhino
Kabuto	20	Fossil	Lobster
Omanyte	20	Fossil	Deep Sea Creature
Bhut	22	Vampire	Wraith	Rock On
Catoblepas	22	Livestock	You Rock	Muddy
Graveler	24	Sphere	Hard Rock	Burrower
Rhyhorn	24	Hardbody	Bonehead	Rhino
Xorn	24	Hardbody	Digger	Heavy Metal
Sudowoodo	25	Hard Rock	Tricky	Leafstress
Magcargo	25	Hard Body	Worm	Lava User
Caryatid	26	Swordsman	Hard Rock	Humanoid
Basilisk	27	Dragon	You Rock	Bite Club

Lunatone	30	Hard Rock	Psychokinetic	Moonlight
Solrock	30	Hard Rock	Psychokinetic	Solar Power
Gorgon	34	Livestock	You Rock	Heavy Metal
Ramparados	36	Fossil	Bonhead	Brain Fu
Pupitar	37	Hardbody	Gasser	Desert Storm
Golem	37	Hard Rock	Burrower	Powerhouse
Omastar	37	Fossil	Deep Sea Creature	Hard Rock
Oread	40	Charm	Geomancy	Magical Fairy
Rhydon	42	Rhino	Hard Rock	Humanoid
Bastiodon	43	Hard Rock	Heavy Metal	Hard Body
Armaldo	43	Fossil	Lobster	Hardbody
Cradily	43	Fossil	Bite Club	Confuser
Aggron	47	Rhino	Heavy Metal	Rock On
Eidolon	48	Hard Rock	Words of Doom
Probopass	50	Hard Rock	Heavy Metal	Electromagnet
Shuckle	50	Worm	Sleepyhead	Caustic
Relicanth	59	Deep Sea Creature	Fossil	Hard Rock
Rhyperior	65	Rhino	Rock On	Cannon
Aerodactyl	71	Fossil	Furious Monster	Air Ace
Kabutops	77	Fossil	Slasher	Lobster
Slaughterstone	80	Vedic	Rock On	Powerhouse
Tyranitar	89	Dragon	Desert Storm	Doomsday
Regirock	93	Rock On	Blaster	Titan

-Username17

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:41 pm

Power Lists Missing:

Geomancy
Bonehead
Moonlight
Lasers
Titan (merge with Kaiju?)
Vedic
Caustic

Edit: Added Gravorg to Ground and Modrons to Steel.

-Username17

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:58 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Each maneuver will have a potential striking section like unto Shogi pieces of Disgaea special attacks, and I'm not actually sure that we need to-hit rolls on top of that.

That works for me, I guess. Perhaps only the At Wills (with their less crazy strike areas and the act that you can fall back on any of them) should have attack rolls. Other than that, we're looking at what, maybe adding attack stat to damage? I don't mind not having such an obscene reliance on those basic numbers - hell, it's somewhat important when higher ranked Pokemon have outright bigger numbers, and stops the hilarious RNG fuck-up of 4E.

Also, someone mentioned the Ironclad Mauler (MMIII), which is apparently an armoured bear. This is mandatory. Steel type, clearly. I'll add it in, later.

Lists I intend on covering tomorrow:

Tricky, Vedic, Beauty Pageant, Ocean's Might, Esoteric Horn Arts

Lastly, I make sure the vodka is drunk, but in return, it makes sure I am drunk!

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:43 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Edit: Added [...] Modrons to Steel.

Yessssssssss.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 3:39 am

I added Ironclad Mauler to Steel, Frank.
And I realised Dancer needs Teeter Dance. I'd suggest replacing Attract.

Tricky

Trick
Switcheroo
Covet
Fling
Shadow Sneak
Power Trick
Guard Trick
Sucker Punch
Fake-Out
Me First!
Trick Room
Quick Attack
Flatter
Swagger
Follow Me
U-Turn

Vedic

Double-Slap
Mega Punch
ORA ORA ORA
Submission
Wrap
Double Punch
Rapid Spin
Thrash

Beauty Pageant

Attract
Captivate
Rain Dance
Follow Me
Astonish
Confuse Ray
Aqua Ring
Sing

Ocean's Might

Surf
Dive
Water Pulse
Hydro Pump
Rain Dance
Aqua Ring
Aqua Tail
Hydro Cannon
Water Spout
Sheer Cold
Whirlpool
Bubble
Acid Armour
Wall of Water
Drown
Brine

Esoteric Horn Arts

Horn Drill
Poison Jab
Horn Attack
Megahorn
Zen Headbutt
Icicle Spear

I guess I'll cover Poison type next, leaving Ice (someone has tagged it) and Normal (huge like Xbox).

Jilocasin · Post by **Jilocasin** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:32 am

Ice Type:


Name	Cost	Movelist 1	Movelist 2	Movelist 3
Swinub	10	Piggy	Frosty	Muddy
Snowcloak	10	Spooky	Frosty	Poisoner
Snow Spider	10	Poisoner	Frosty	Weaver
Smoochum	14	Living Snowball	Gloom and Doom	Power of Cute
Spheal	14	Sphere	Frosty	Power of Cute
Snover	14	Delicious	Frosty	Leafstress
Winter Wolf	14	Big Dog	Frosty	Predator
Snorunt	17	Glacial Might	Spooky	Singer
Mephit (Ice)	17	Living Snowball	Bully
Delibird	18	Bird	Frosty	Charm
Frost Salamander	20	Serpent	Frosty	Bite Club
Ice Toad	20	Battletoad	Glacial Might	Powerhouse
White Pudding	20	Amorphous Form	Living Snowball	Poisoner
Urskan	25	Heavy Metal	Glacial Might	Powerhouse
Piloswine	28	Piggy	Glacial Might	Muddy
Asperi	30	Winder Rider	Frosty	Speedster
Sealeo	32	Frosty	Power of Cute	Bite Club
Dewgong	32	Deep Sea Creature	Frosty	Rhino
Sneasel	35	Bully	Frosty
Frost Worm	35	Serpent	Frosty	Predator
Jynx	36	Humanoid	Living Snowball	Gloom and Doom
Walrein	42	Torrential Power	Frosty	Bite Club
Glaceon	45	Weasel	Charm	Frosty
Winterwight	45	Spooky	Frosty	Assassin
Abomasnow	45	Leafstress	Frosty	Powerhouse
Cloud Ray	47	Wind Rider	Glacial Might	Lazy Defense
Cloyster	50	Hard Body	Deep Sea Creature	Evil Bastard
Lapras	50	Deep Sea Creature	Frosty	Beauty Pageant
Glalie	53	Living Snowball	Sphere	Spooky
Rimefire Eidolon	57	Glacial Might	Sacred	Words of Doom
Weird (Snow)	59	Frosty	Sacred	Charm
Weird (Ice)	59	Glacial Might	Sacred	Mirage
Mamoswine	59	Geomancy	Glacial Might	Powerhouse
Froslass	59	Charm	Frosty	Spooky
Weavile	65	Bully	Frosty	Esoteric Martial Arts
Chilblain	71	Furious Monster	Frosty	Lobster
Articuno	85	Bird	Frosty	Air Ace
Regice	95	Blaster	Glacial Might	Titan
Xixecal	110	Titan	Living Snowball	Nightmare

Added Asperi and Cloud Ray to the Flying Type list as well.
Urskan might want to be added to Steel.
Snow Spider to Bug.

Jilocasin · Post by **Jilocasin** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:18 am

Normal Type:


Name	Cost	Movelist 1	Movelist 2	Movelist 3
Rattata	8	Mouse	Bite Club
Bidoof	8	Weasel	Bite Club
Azurill	8	Mouse	Power of Cute
Igglybuff	8	Sphere	Power of Cute
Cleffa	8	Magical Fairy	Singer	Power of Cute
Sentret	8	Mouse	Speedster
Whismur	8	Singer	Magical Fairy
Zigzazoon	10	Weasel	Oh Shiny!
Pidgey	10	Bird	Air Ace
Starly	10	Bird	Evil Bastard
Spearow	10	Bird	Aerialist
Happiny	10	Nurse	Power of Cute
Togepi	10	Sphere	Power of Cute
Meowth	12	Cat	Oh Shiny!	Tricky
Glameow	12	Cat	Bully
Hoothoot	12	Bird	Confuser
Skitty	12	Cat	Power of Cute
Teddiursa	13	Power of Cute	Mouse
Taillow	14	Bird	Singer
Buneary	14	Power of Cute	Humanoid
Slakoth	14	Slasher	Lazy Defense
Doduo	14	Bird	Predator
Snubbull	14	Bully	Bite Club
Dunsparce	14	Digger	Winder Rider
Swablu	16	Bird	Singer	Power of Cute
Spinda	16	Confuser	Power of Cute
Jigglypuff	17	Sphere	Singer	Power of Cute
Lickitung	17	Tentacular	Sphere
Porygon	18	Electromagnet	Ditto	Multimind
Chatot	18	Bird	Singer	Cheerleader
Stantler	20	Livestock	Collider
Munchlax	20	Sleepyhead	Lazy Defense
Bibarel	20	Wading Pool	Power of Cute
Fearow	20	Bird	Aerialist
Linoone	20	Weasel	Speedster	Oh Shiny!
Noctowl	20	Bird	Confuser	Spooky
Raticate	20	Mouse	Bite Club	Predator
Eevee	20	Mouse	Cheerleader	Power of Cute
Aipom	22	Humanoid	Cheerleader
Pidgeotto	22	Bird	Air Ace
Furret	22	Weasel	Speedster
Loudred	22	Singer	Humanoid
Staravia	23	Bird	Evil Bastard	Air Ace
Kecleon	23	Ditto	Tricky	Slasher
Farfetch'd	24	Bird	Air Ace	Swordsman
Clefairy	24	Magical Fairy	Charm	Singer
Togetic	24	Bird	Magical Fairy	Cheerleader
Lopunny	24	Humanoid	Cheerleader	Beauty Pageant
Delcatty	25	Beauty Pageant	Cat	Trick
Smeargle	25	Baton Passer	Ditto
Ditto	26	Amorphous Form	Ditto
Castform	26	Amorphous Form	Sphere	Solar Power
Porygon 2	28	Electromagnet	Ditto	Multimind
Arrowhawk	30	Predator	Air Ace	Bully
Vigoroth	30	Humanoid	Judo
Tauros	32	Rhino	Livestock	Collider
Miltank	33	Livestock	Powerhouse	Nurse
Chansey	35	Nurse	Sphere
Wigglytuff	35	Magical Fairy	Singer	Powerhouse
Ursaring	35	Bully	Powerhouse	Humanoid
Pidgeot	36	Bird	Air Ace
Dodrio	36	Bird	Predator	Multi-Minded
Girafarig	36	Psychokinetic	Bully	Baton Passer
Purugly	37	Cat	Evil Bastard	Predator
Granbull	37	Bully	Bite Club	Big Dog
Clefable	38	Magical Fairy	Cheerleader	Powerhouse
Staraptor	38	Air Ace	Evil Bastard	Predator
Ambipom	38	Humanoid	Cheerleader	Martial Artist
Swellow	39	Bird	Cheerleader	Aerialist
Zangoose	40	Weasel	Slasher	Assassin
Lickilicky	40	Sphere	Powerhouse	Tentacular
Persian	42	Cat	Oh Shiny!	Beauty Pageant
Porygon Z	42	Electromagnet	Ditto	Multimind
Kangaskhan	45	Boxing	Humanoid	Powerhouse
Exploud	47	Singer	Humanoid	Furious Monster
Togekiss	53	Bird	Cheerleader	Blaster
Absur'd	53	Knight	Air Ace	Swordsman
Slaking	59	Lazy Defense	Powerhouse	Collider
Snorlax	59	Sleepyhead	Powerhouse	Lazy Defense
Blissey	69	Nurse	Sphere	Blaster
Regigigas	115	Titan	Cosmic Forces	Powerhouse
Arceus	121	Cosmic Forces	Dimensional Rift	Sacred

Oh Shiny!

Pay Day
Captivate
Return
Facade
Thief
Payback
Charm

Nurse

Softboiled
Refresh
Sweet Kiss
Safeguard
Toxic
Aromatherapy
Heal Bell
Helping Hand
Egg Bomb
Healing Wish

Ditto

Transform
Mimic
Conversion
Conversion 2
Copycat
Encore

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:33 am

Poison Type


Name	Cost	Movelist 1	Movelist 2	Movelist 3
Weedle	6	Worm	Poisoner	-
Kakuna	8	Pod	Poisoner	-
Zubat	10	Air Ace	Vampire	-
Spinarak	10	Weaver	Poisoner	Bully
Budew	10	Seeds	Thorns	-
Nidoran	12	Poisoner	Rhino	-
Bellsprout	12	Tentacular	Delicious	-
Croagunk	12	Battletoad	Poisoner	Evil Bastard
Grimer	13	Amorphous Form	Poisoner	Muddy
Gulpin	13	Spitter	Amorphous Form	-
Oddish	14	Flower Power	Delicious	Toxic Touch
Venonat	14	Moth	Confuser	-
Tentacool	16	Tentacular	Toxic Touch	Wading Pool
Gastly	16	Gasser	Mirage	Wraith
Ekans	17	Serpent	Poisoner	-
Nidorina	18	Poisoner	Rhino	Burrower
Nidorino	18	Poisoner	Rhino	Dim Mak
KOFFING!	19	Sphere	Gasser	-
Ariados	20	Weaver	Poisoner	Bully
Qwilfish	20	Fishy	Toxic Touch	-
Dustox	20	Moth	Confuser	Assassin
Beedrill	20	Bee	Poisoner	Assassin
Gloom	20	Flower Power	Gasser	Toxic Touch
Weepinbell	20	Tentacular	Delicious	Gasser
Roselia	22	Flower Power	Delicious	Thorns
Stunky	26	Cat	Gasser	-
Golbat	27	Vampire	Air Ace	Bully
Haunter	28	Spooky	Toxic Touch	Amorphous Form
Arbok	29	Serpent	Poisoner	Bite Club
Swalot	31	Spitter	Amorphous Form	Caustic
Venomoth	31	Moth	Confuser	Words of Doom
Seviper	37	Bite Club	Serpent	Toxic Touch
Tentacruel	42	Toxic Touch	Tentacular	Deep Sea Creature
Toxicroak	43	Battletoad	Poisoner	Evil Bastard
Skuntank	45	Gasser	Cat	Blaster
Nidoqueen	47	Rhino*	Toxic Touch	Burrower
Nidoking	47	Rhino	Earth Rage	Dim Mak
Drapion	47	Lobster	Poisoner	Angry Monster
Victreebell	55	Tentacular	Delicious	Leafstress
Vileplume	59	Flower Power	Gasser	Toxic Touch
Crobat	65	Vampire	Air Ace	Bully
Roserade	65	Flower Power	Thorns	Vampire
Weezing	66	Gasser	Pokebomb	Multimind
Gengar	71	Mirage	Toxic Touch	Gloom and Doom
Muk	73	Amorphous Form	Toxic Touch	Muddy

*Arguably Rhino could be swapped here for something Kangaroo-ish.

Also, Mephits:


Name	Type/s	Movelist 1	Movelist 2
Fire	Fire	Body Inferno	Fire Master
Magma	Fire/Rock	Lava User	Bully
Steam	Fire/Water	Fire Starter	Spitter
Water	Water	Hydro Warrior	Wading Pool
Ice	Ice	Living Snowball	Bully
Ooze	Poison	Muddy	Amorphous Form
Earth	Ground	Hard Rock	Digger
Dust	Ground/Flying	Gloom and Doom	Desert Storm
Air	Flying	Air Ace	Wind Rider
Salt	Rock	You Rock	Bully*

*I'm tempted to replace this with Vampire, because of water-draining

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 2:30 pm

Let's talk about stats and game mechanics for a second.

Stat Assignment Lookup Charts


Level of Blood Hawk	Cost	That's a 1st level	Average Level:	Points for Level Gain	Tradeoff
1	11	Swinub	Budew	3	Bloodhawk/Bulbasaur
2	14	Charmander	Bulbasaur	5	Mareep(12)/Mephit(17)
3	19	Aureptile	Dryad	7	Bulbasaur(13)/Sandslash(20)
4	26	Electabuzz	Diretoad	9	Drowzee(15)/Sirine(24)
5	35	Cacturne	~Obseon	11	Mephit(17)/Wartortle(28)
6	46	Heracross	~Luxio	13	Giant Crab(19)/Yanmega(32)
7	59	~Bellossum	~Octillery	15	Luxio(22)/Slaablu(37)
8	74	~Ragewind	~Seadra	17	Ponyta(25)/Bulette(42)
9	91	Raikou	~Hitmonchan	19	Sunflora(28)/Greenvice(47)
10	110	Darkrai	Wailord	21	Gorgon(34)/Starmie(53)
11	131	-	~Inferno Spider	23	Primeape(36)/Geriviar(59)
12	154	-	~Charizard	25	Oread(40)/Rhyperior(65)
13	179	-	~Electrode	27	Dusclops(44)/Alkilith(71)
14	206	-	Sundoo	29	Bronzong(48)/Battlebriar(77)
15	235	-	Orcwort	31	Milotic(54)/Effigy(85)
16	266	-	Topior	33	Gallade(60)/Blakslaad(93)
17	299	-	Ragewind	35	Orcwort(66)/Lugia(101)
18	334	-	~Kabutops	37	(73)/Celebi(110)
19	371	-	~Megapede	39	(82)/Tiamat(121)
20	410	-	Raikou	-	-

What does that last column mean? It means that it would cost the same to upgrade your 8th level Ponyta to 9th level as it would to trade her out for an 8th level Land Shark. Note that since costs do not increase geometrically, that it is in fact impossible to make a smooth progression of growth, which means that there will be breakpoints. For example: Our 10 point Blood Hawk comes in at the same price at 14th level as the minimum level Sundoo (12th level), and the breakeven point against a minimum level Scyther (10th level) is 11.7th level. And the breakeven point between the minimum level Sundoo and the Scyther is 11th level for the Scyther.

So the Scyther is 1.7 levels ahead of the Bloodhawk, the Sundoo is 2 levels ahead of the Bloodhawk, but the Scyther is 1 whole level behind the Sundoo. Obviously these things are not additive in the traditional sense. We can set up breakpoints obviously, as well as throwing major curveballs with the special powers. Tyranitar comes with a whole battlefield free-action sandstorm and that's something that a Rock/Ground/Steel team would pay basically however much was asked for it even if it didn't come with good stats (which Tyranitar also does, because he is cool like that). But I would like to set it up so that the "obvious choice" is not to fill your team with max level Wurmples and minimum level Megapedes.

-Username17

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:40 pm

Then there's the question of what your tactical choices mean and effect. It is desirable I believe for the game to be more complicated than simply having Ninjask move last, jump the opposing "king" and strike first with guillotine. That's just not very tactically deep. Neither is having Abra Telefrag the enemy king at the beginning. With a goal of eliminating the enemy leader, we must remember that Deneghra lists play themselves in Warmachine, and lead to games that are not very tactically diverse.

The first thing that I think should be done is to have each band move one model in turns going around the table. This reduces 20 unit initiative confusion and also prevents long boring periods where one person is moving 4 models in a row and everyone else has to wait. Also, this means that players will not have to make a final decision as to the location of their Master until all of their Walls are in place, so an assassin unit like Ninjask or Jolteon is going to have to deal with the locations of all the defensive units of the other side during their movement. On the flip side, a potential assassin unit could be used to go early in the order to act as a "harrier" by moving up to a location where they can threaten attacks of opportunity on the Master.

This setup of movement gives a very definite advantage to eliminating enemy units, because it forces other units of theirs to move early in the turn. If you outnumber the enemy 4 to 3, then you get to move one or two units after all of theirs are fixed. And if you outnumber them 4 to 2 then you get to move two or three units after their locations are all fixed and presumably set up brutal flanking attacks and such.

-Username17

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:58 pm

So, if you alternate who moves first based speed, does Jolteon move first and attack before anyone else can move or attack, or does Jolteon last and his attacks are resolved first (unless some other pokemon uses Quick Attack or whatever)?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:11 pm

So I did some mockups of what the gym challenges in Gloomwood might be like:

Badge Challenges


Badge	Gloomwood Gym
1st (2)	Wurmple (1) Weedle (2) Metapod (1)
2nd (4)	Phase Wasp (4) Spinarak (4) Gulpin (4)
3rd (6)	Kakuna (4) Spinarak (5) Burmy (5) Phase Spider (6)
4th (8)	Paras (7) Koffing (8) Ooze Mephit (8) Phase Spider (8)
5th (10)	Gulpin (9) Koffing (9) Yanmega (10) Phase Spider (10) Drapion (10)
6th (12)	Spinarak (11) Koffing (12) Phase Spider (12) Parasect (12) Shadow Spider (12)
7th (14)	Inferno Spider (14) Phase Spider (14) Drapion (14) Sepia Hulk (14) Shadow Spider (14) Weezing (14)
8th (16)	Phase Spider (15) Drapion (15) Inferno Spider (16) Shadow Spider (16) Weezing (16) Megapede (16) Gym Leader: Soldier(16)

And honestly, that looks pretty reasonable, although it might be better if leadership values were reduced a bit at level 14 - it really doesn't feel like the gym leader is giving up much to field an evolved Umber Hulk and a Weezing.

Anyhow, I figure that in Gym Challenges the Master doesn't actually field themselves unless it's your 8th badge challenge in which case they actually pull the stops out and go nuts on your ass with Megapedes and the gym leader wading into the fray in full chitin armor. Which brings us to a question: how do we actually set up conflicts when it's just "some dudes" and there really isn't a Master? For that matter, what about the extremely common occurrence when there are several masters on the field at once (as will by the case whenever the PCs are in the same battle together.

My initial thought on the matter is that - at least in gym battles, and probably all the time - if there isn't a Master on one side that some unit has to be designated as the failure point of the whole operation. For multiple masters, maybe all the Masters have to go down before the team folds, but every Pokemon under a dropped Master is at morale penalties for the rest of the fight? That would keep players from having to sit out a lot and make Ninja and Knight characters who run in and stab things a lot more viable.

-Username17

Sunwitch · Post by **Sunwitch** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:48 pm

As much as I could cut the MM4 out of my collection and not miss anything important, the Skiurid fits the bill for a Pokemon-ish D&D monster pretty well. Basically, it's a dark Rattata. Something like cost 10, Mouse, Dimensional Rift, Gloom and Doom. Why the heck not.

DragonChild · Post by **DragonChild** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:39 pm

How exactly are Gym Leaders going to work in a game with multiple players? Do they each challenge each? Each person fields one pokemon or some-such? The Gym Leader calls in friends, or gets to act more often, or is just THAT high level?

I now have an image of a party that's questing to be the new Elite Four, rather than just the "Pokemon Master".

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 5:32 am

Caustic

Gastro Acid
Gunk Shot
Acid
Acid Armour
Stockpile
Spit Up
Swallow
Toxic

Little Dragon

Twister
Dragon Rage
Dragon Dance
Splash
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Rush
Dragon Breath
Water Gun

Sacred

Extrasensory
Safeguard
Flame Wheel
Calm Mind
Sacred Fire
Punishment
Cosmic Power
Recover
Safeguard
Ancient Power
Roar
Will-O-Wisp
Light Screen
Flash
Future Sight
Smite Evil

Seeds

Leech Seed
Worry Seed
Ingrain
Stun Spore
Cotton Spore
Seed Bullet
Natural Gift
Growth

Construct

Harden
Rock Tomb
Self Destruct
Explosion
Recycle
Rock Polish
Stealth Rock
Gyro Ball
Rock Slide
Stone Edge
Protect
Safeguard
Endure
Rapid Spin
Rock Smash
Giga Impact

Bonehead

Bonemerang
Bone Rush
Iron Head
Double Edge
Headbutt
Bone Club

Earth Rage

Earth Power
Stone Edge
Earthquake
Magnitude
Rock Tomb
Sandstorm
Thrash
Mud Slap

Counterattack!

Counter
Avalanche
Endeavour
Pain Split
Endure
Bide
Mirror Coat
Destiny Bond

In the Name of the Moon/Moonlight

Moonlight
Lunar Dance
Hypnosis
Heal Block
Safeguard
Psycho Shift
Aurora Beam
Cosmic Power

Dragon

Dragon Breath
Outrage
Dragon Pulse
Dragon Claw
Fly
Surf
Recover
Twister
Draco Meteor
Whirlpool
Dragon Dance
Rain Dance
Gust
Razor Wind
Water Pulse
Flame Thrower

Multiminded

Tri-Attack
Substitute
Double Team
Haste
Extreme Speed
Beat Up

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 2:05 pm

Added and Alphabetized. Splorg. Also added a lot of D&D monsters to various lists and cross linked a few of the multi-typers. Are there any more Pokemon that need to be added or can we start making the numeric Pokedex?

Missing Lists:

Lasers (Beholder, Corollax, advanced Ashrats, Energons etc).
Titan (may be combined with Kaiju)
Water Fowl (Psyduck, Wingull, and friends)
Wading Pool (Nymphs and Lotads)
Mounted Combat (Ponyta, Cauchemar, Griffon)
Geomancy (Mamoswine, Dustwav, Nosepass, Gravorg, Claydol, etc)
Gadgeteer (Wormadram, Rotom)
Might of Earth (Triskelion, Monolith) - Maybe fold into Earth Rage?

Which seems pretty doable.

-Username17